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And welcome to this episode.

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This episode I am joined with the lovely Marie.

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How are you?

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Thank you for being here.

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Oh, you're welcome, thank you for having me.

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My pleasure and I know it looks nice in my posts and obviously I volunteered to share your story, which I am so grateful for.

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So thank you, because we're, just before we press recording where we just need to get more stories out to make awareness.

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Yes, definitely.

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Yeah.

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Around this.

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So do you want to share a little bit about your journey in your own words, lovely.

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Yeah, sure.

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Well, many years ago now, I had um, my son and everything was fantastic and went, you know, normal, no problem conceiving or anything.

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But then I had... infertility issues, could not get pregnant for quite a long time, obviously desperately wanted a 2nd child, and To just cut the story short, we can go into more detail if you want later.

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I had the 1st step propic pregnancy and didn't know I was pregnant to begin with.

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And That floored me because I'd never expected anything like that.

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It'd been so quick.

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I'd been so quick to conceiving so easily the 1st time.

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Anyway, after that, of course, it's even more increased infertility, because you've only one tube.

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And only, you know, obviously only, well, no idea what percentage you've got of ovulating from the right side because you don't go left, right, left, right, you know?

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So, After lots and lots of treatment.

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Nothing had happened.

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And then I got, A pregnancy.

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I thought, brilliant, you know, test positive.

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And within about a week, I'd started losing, and I thought, oh, this is just a threatened miscarriage, you know, surely.

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Um, went in and they said, no, we can't see anything in the womb at all.

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So it's probably another uptopic.

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Went to surgery, new as soon as I'd come round that, yes, that's what they'd done, because you know, you've been sliced open and, you know, you can feel it, so I'd gone down hoping it wasn't, but came back with no tubes at all.

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So, it was a very, very difficult period of time.

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I felt like it was, The worst bereavement.

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And I hadn't, had more than, you know, a week or 2 pregnant to even think about that, but it was the bereavement for what was now not going to happen naturally, like, yeah.

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So it took a long, long time to get over that.

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I used to seem okay during the day, but then I'd get into bed at night and the tears had come and, you know, I knew there was no way of, of a natural pregnancy any longer.

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Um, no support groups.

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No offer of support from hospital.

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I mean, we are going back a long time, but, I'm not sure there's much more now.

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Something I'd often thought about afterwards, it would be great to start a group, but at the time you're not in the headspace to do anything like that.

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You want the support not to support others right away.

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And I think it was perhaps the year after the 2nd depth topic we decided to go for IVF.

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And thankfully it worked 1st time.

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Um, and I got my daughter, but, you know, it sounds selfish for people who've never had any children that, it was so bad to not get a 2nd.

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And it's, it's awful to say, but I think sometimes when you know what you're missing, it can be as bad as never having had one at all.

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So, And everyone's different.

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Everyone feels it different, don't they?

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But there was no support, no groups, no information, not even a leaflet with these up topics.

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Um, and you're going through full abdominal surgery as well at the time, and that's really what they're concerned with just the medical issues, and nothing else.

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Yeah.

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Recording for this podcast, the amount of store, every, I don't think I've interviewed one lady who's actually said that they had support.

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Right. Which is just so alarming.

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It is. It might, like you say, mine were quite a while ago, you know, I'd like to think things have improved, you know, somewhat, but I don't think they have, to be quite honest.

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Um, I know there is more support groups and charities that have popped up now, haven't there, which is amazing and thank goodness for them, but I just still feel it's still a very a taboo subject and lack of support.

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think so.

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Yeah, I do.

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I think there's miscarriage groups.

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Um, sometimes I've seen those, but I've never seen anything for topic pregnancies at all.

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But there could be, as I say, it's not something I'm looking for at the moment, but I, I just think it's worth sharing that it's, it's horrific because not only are you losing a baby.

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You've got all this surgery to go through and get over. And, um, you know, and and then when it happens again, you've got no chance of a natural conception.

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So it's very final that, you know, it's like a final thing and and it's, it's very, very difficult to, to deal with.

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How did you navigate through that time because obviously I'd like you said, the no one prepares you for the grief of baby loss, whatever baby loss is yours, whether it's IVF, theft topic.

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Ever child loss, whatever the loss is, no one can prepare you for that grief.

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And for like a year and you say an eptopic pregnancy and you're having like something of your body removed and it's the final thing, isn't it?

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It's like, yeah.

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No, there's no, you can't conceive after that.

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How did you navigate? Process?

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How did you get through that?

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I think it was months of, of feeling bereaved, and It, like I said, it was more a bereavement for what was now not possible, because the 1st topic I was about 12 weeks.

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So that was a lot further on, but I hadn't lost hope.

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The 2nd one, I was only sort of a week after finding out, so perhaps 6 weeks, and You know, it hadn't really sunk in that much, to be honest.

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So it was more.

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It was less of the baby and more of the finality of the situation, I think, which was just horrendous.

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I think it took me months to stop weeping at the drop of a hat and um,

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I think it was only after we decided we would go down the IBF route and it had to be private because my husband hadn't any children.

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It was my 2nd husband.

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So my son didn't count for him that the fact that he hadn't got any children, because I had one, we had to pay for it.

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Which I also think is really unfair that with the IBF and I think it's still the same, that,

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Yeah, that it goes on.

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If one of you've got a child.

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Or definitely if the mum's got a child.

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IBF, do you have to, obviously, I don't know, but we did try to attempt IVF at one and we only just... the process at the early stage, but we were too overweight to even be considered at the time.

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Which at the time I wasn't even at my heaviest then, so it was like, wow, okay.

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And the amount of weight he asked us to lose was just like, it was great.

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It's like we needed to be like 7 stone or something stupid.

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It was like, wow.

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So we never, um, we never put, like, went forward.

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Yeah, I think it's, that's probably easier now as well, I think, that they've probably realised that you don't have to be 7 stone to conceive, you know what I mean?

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I think they've probably gone beyond that.

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Yeah, so what I was asking, obviously gone through, it was do they go from like how many miscarriages you've had to go through before you get IVF on the NHS or what's the procedure?

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Well, I didn't get it on the NHS, obviously, so we had to pay for it.

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But, um,

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I don't know that it's that.

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There's a length of time, or there used to be, again, I'm not up to date with this, because it's quite a long time ago, but I think you'd used to have to have been trying for at least 12 months, naturally, before they even considered you on the NHS, but that, again, may be different, but it's worth if people are looking to do that.

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It's worth asking all these questions 1st rather than getting your hopes up. If you've got to keep trying for a bit longer, you know what I mean?

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It's worth enquiring, isn't it?

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Of course.

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And that's an invasive procedure as well.

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That's sort of nerve-wracking because you're spending all this money and then, you know, what if it doesn't work?

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Um, But thankfully, it did, and we had frozen embryos as well.

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And twice afterwards after my daughter was born.

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We tried, you know, an implant, a frozen embryos, but neither of those times worked.

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But I was okay.

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I'd got the boy and the girl and I'm, you know, I've got the two.

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It was just a, let's have another really quickly to keep her company because the gap was 9 and half years by this time between them.

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So that was, that was the reason really to try and get her a little companion, but it didn't work out. Yeah, it, that wasn't, that wasn't a major upset in, in a way, apart from wasting money, but, you know, yeah.

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You know, they might spend and, you know, um, how, how was that bit, the age difference, how did you navigate that?

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All right, or how was that with the age gap?

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Um great.

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Until she got a little character and was toddling around and he was about, you know, coming up to 13 and not and he was very interested in the beginning and really delighted to have a sibling.

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But then, yeah, when a couple of years later, it was like, get her off my things and don't let her touch, you know, all the usual.

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Um, and they weren't very close until They both got to adult, really.

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And they are now, but they, yeah, they weren't, really, because the gap, it was fine.

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It was like having the 1st one again for me.

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Because it was 9.5 years and I didn't, I didn't remember what to do and have to bath a baby and all of that.

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But, He helped and he enjoyed it and he was more independent, so that was easier for me.

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You know, he was, I didn't have to get him ready for school.

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He could get himself organised, so that was easy.

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The age gap for that bit was good.

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But, Yeah, they weren't.

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They weren't close, but like, a bit later on when he was teenage.

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age.

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I did have a babysitter, but that was all.

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Yeah.

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So let's just talk about the grief journey through.

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mind touching on that because you've touched on quite a few different levels of grief.

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Obviously, the loss of a bit the babies, the traumatic going through either the IVF procedure or going through having an operation twice.

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The grief of you might not be able to have a 2nd child that you're always monitored.

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So that's another grief process, isn't it?

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Because that's something.

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Yate.

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And it still does get me at time.

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I still have to work on that because I wanted Isaac to be a normal child.

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So I still do more and grieve over that having that 2nd child still.

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Where did you navigate all those different kinds of grief, which was the, well, I can't say which was the worst, but which was the hardest, I suppose, to navigate for you.

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That finality that you can't do this naturally anymore.

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This is not going to happen.

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I'd always had hope.

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I think you always have hope, don't you, till they tell you.

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That's it.

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No more.

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You know, you can't do this now, and that was, that was the worst.

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I mean, yes it was sad.

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Losing them for sure, but it was, it was that.

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It was just that, no, you've got to now either go down this costly IVF route or resign yourself to having one.

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Um, And like I said, it took a long time to get over that.

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I think my 2nd husband proposed after a few months, because we weren't married at the time, because he thought that would give me something to occupy my mind with, you know, because I did need something to occupy my mind.

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And he said, look, we'll plan a wedding.

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You can plan all that in he knows I'm a planner and an organiser.

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Um,

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And it helped.

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It helped having a focus.

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Yeah.

151
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Um, until we went for the IBF.

152
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But yeah.

153
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I always think you've got to have something else to focus on.

154
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Um, And that, that did help, but, and I was also really grateful to him for the fact he had no natural children and he was marrying somebody that potentially would never be able to conceive a child for him because he wanted children.

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Because that's live, isn't it?

156
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So, how daging part?

157
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Okay, that how did he cope with that news?

158
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Well, he was very upset at the time, but I think he got a bit frustrated with me for the length of time that I was upset afterwards.

159
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Hey, um,

160
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So, Looking back, yeah, I think he wasn't unkind about it.

161
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But I think he just thought I would be able to move on a bit quicker than I did and was a bit fed up with me, you know, sobbing at night and that, so, yeah.

162
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Um, but then I could say, He gave me something to plan.

163
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But, And stuck by me and that's something you think, well, look.

164
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You know, he could have walked away, couldn't he?

165
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So.

166
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Did it?

167
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Did it bring you stronger or did anything change in your relationship?

168
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Um.

169
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Not really.

170
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No, I think I think.

171
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He was he was happy to go through the process through the IVF process.

172
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No, I don't think it, it made us stronger or weaker.

173
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I think we just plodded on with it all and yeah, I think so.

174
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It's hard to think.

175
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Yeah, it's hard to think back on that, but.

176
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Because I think I've blocked a lot out at the time when you're just grieving.

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You're not considering everything else that's going on around.

178
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Um, you're not, Taking it all in, really.

179
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No, exactly, you don't, do you?

180
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In that. Freeze.

181
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Um state, aren't you?

182
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You know, that free, that numb, that numbness you go through.

183
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I feel anyway, definitely.

184
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Yeah.

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Did it in, like, did any of it impact your confidence and the way you showed up to the world?

186
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Did it impact you in any other ways apart from obviously the grieving and the loss and The things that happen to your body, anything else, would you say if you can remember?

187
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Um, I don't think it affected my confidence.

188
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No.

189
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Um,

190
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I think it made me avoid friends that were having babies a little bit, not entirely, and I think that's quite natural, and I think we all do that, when you're either trying to conceive, and it's not happening or you've lost, then you don't really want to be around them.

191
00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:13,380
Um, But there wasn't lots, you know, it wasn't like I wasn't going anywhere of doing anything, but, you know, I was back at work after whatever, not weeks, yeah, had off with the surgeries and, There'd be people always leaving there because I worked in a big office environment at the time and, you know, having baby showers in the office.

192
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And it's hard to show up and smile at these things, isn't it?

193
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But you do, you get through it, you just do it.

194
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You just have to, because it's not their fault.

195
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You know, so.

196
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No, definitely.

197
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What kind of support?

198
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I mean, obviously you said that you didn't get any support like from the hospital, the NHS or anything like that?

199
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Did you get? What, did friends, family, support you or?

200
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I mean, yeah, I think friends were.

201
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Nice and kind about it all, but none of them had experienced it, so they didn't really know what to say about it all.

202
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Um, you know, just do you need anything?

203
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The usual scenario.

204
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I've got some nice friends, but there wasn't, there was nothing they could do to help me with my grief.

205
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No, nothing at all.

206
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People say, oh, it's great.

207
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Youve got all this support.

208
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Doesn't make any difference.

209
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:06,900
I don't think. It's in you, isn't it?

210
00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:12,000
I don't think no matter how many people try and say the right thing.

211
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:17,160
It's, it's not changing anything till York, till you work through it.

212
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:18,180
Yeah.

213
00:17:18,180 --> 00:17:21,300
What helped you work through it, would you say?

214
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:23,040
Is there anything in particular that helped you?

215
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:28,439
Just that planning a wedding, giving me a focus, something to get my mind on too.

216
00:17:28,439 --> 00:17:29,339
Um,

217
00:17:29,699 --> 00:17:36,719
I suppose I had to go back to work and um, you know, show up there and and work.

218
00:17:36,719 --> 00:17:45,660
So my mind was more occupied in the day. It was still this evening, in the evening or lying in bed that I used to drift off thinking about it again.

219
00:17:45,660 --> 00:17:53,520
Um, But then, As I say, after the wedding, we did the IVF and that was great.

220
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,859
So there was always a focus, a big focus.

221
00:17:55,859 --> 00:18:02,099
I don't know how I'd have navigated it without that, really, because I think that was what helped me.

222
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:07,079
Yeah, I think definitely having a focus really helps, doesn't it?

223
00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:09,719
If you can focus just into something.

224
00:18:09,719 --> 00:18:16,560
It's not ignoring the grief because we still have to deal with the grief and deal with anything that's coming up, don't we?

225
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,000
Because, yeah.

226
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You suppress it, it's just going to come and bite you in the bum at some point.

227
00:18:22,199 --> 00:18:26,339
So it is, it's not about ignoring your feelings or having to deal with it.

228
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But it's just another.

229
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It's a tool, isn't it, to help you get through that.

230
00:18:31,319 --> 00:18:42,000
Yeah, and I'm sure it crops up in the deep recesses of my subconscious from time to time, you know, when you feel low and there's all sorts of dramas going on.

231
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I think.

232
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It's there.

233
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:44,939
It's trauma, isn't it?

234
00:18:44,939 --> 00:18:53,939
And you, I work with the people with hoarding disorder and I know what trauma's like, um, and how many traumas people go through, multiple traumas in their life.

235
00:18:53,939 --> 00:19:05,219
So I'm sure it is classed as one and it's there somewhere, affecting somehow at some point it's probably affected my mental health, but I've not pinpointed that as affecting anything.

236
00:19:05,219 --> 00:19:07,079
No, which is good.

237
00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:08,640
Yeah, definitely.

238
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,479
And like you say, everybody's journey is different as ever, or is different.

239
00:19:12,479 --> 00:19:26,400
And this is why I like this podcast is because We're coming at at it from all different angles, everybody's story is completely different, which is for other people to hear, um, and whether they can, you know, relate to it.

240
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,420
Would you, what would you have wished for to have happened any differently?

241
00:19:30,420 --> 00:19:32,760
What support would you have wished for?

242
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:38,099
Was there anything that happened in the hospitals, you know, that you'd wish that was different?

243
00:19:38,099 --> 00:19:39,599
Um,

244
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In hospital.

245
00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:44,219
I'm not sure.

246
00:19:44,219 --> 00:19:58,439
I just think that the, if there'd have been something you could go away with, like a call, a number to call, to discuss, um, some sort of help group, would have been really beneficial.

247
00:19:58,439 --> 00:20:01,739
Um, even if, like I say, it was just a call.

248
00:20:01,739 --> 00:20:03,300
There wasn't even a number to call.

249
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:06,660
Um, But people that look could understand it.

250
00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:09,599
Because when I was doing the IVF there was.

251
00:20:09,599 --> 00:20:15,540
There was an IVF loss number, because it's private, so that obviously they've got all these sort of things going on.

252
00:20:15,540 --> 00:20:21,900
And there was a girl reached out to me quite local to where I was.

253
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I didn't know, but they'd passed on people who'd had a successful conclusion, could be the voice at the end of the phone to try and help people, either decide to go through with it.

254
00:20:35,699 --> 00:20:43,199
Or decide to do it again, or just to talk about why, how they'd got there and that.

255
00:20:43,199 --> 00:20:45,599
So one person reached out.

256
00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:52,739
I don't know whether they didn't keep me on the list or nobody else reached out after that, but that was interesting, but that was from the other side if you like.

257
00:20:52,739 --> 00:20:55,380
Somebody asking for advice from me.

258
00:20:55,380 --> 00:21:03,359
But there was nothing at the time, no, nothing at all, and I think that would have been really good because even my husband didn't understand what I was feeling.

259
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,880
Yet somebody had gone through, it would have.

260
00:21:06,420 --> 00:21:08,939
Oh, I hope they would, yeah.

261
00:21:08,939 --> 00:21:10,500
That's it.

262
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:15,660
I think just having those support circles, you don't know where to turn when you go through that, you feel all alone, don't you?

263
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Yeah.

264
00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:17,280
Yeah, definitely.

265
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:17,760
Yeah.

266
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:27,239
You going through it and if you could have access to a support group, that the NHS, you know, um pinpointed to you when referring to.

267
00:21:27,239 --> 00:21:30,239
And as couples as well, because like you say,

268
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Partners don't understand what you're going through either.

269
00:21:33,180 --> 00:21:41,939
So having other couples to talk to as well for them, I feel would be beneficial as well, because obviously, being a lot of things.

270
00:21:41,939 --> 00:21:43,619
Don't they don't talk about the feeling.

271
00:21:43,619 --> 00:21:48,000
So, you know, I think for them, they're going through it too at the end of the day.

272
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:54,119
Um, you know, I feel that a support group would be of how, you know, real benefit to people.

273
00:21:54,119 --> 00:22:01,800
And I don't know whether there is anything like that now it, but when I agree with you when I went through it, there was nothing like that.

274
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,420
So...

275
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What would you say to anybody?

276
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,000
Going through anything like this right now?

277
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,239
Is there any words of wisdom you can say to somebody?

278
00:22:12,959 --> 00:22:14,939
Never give up hope.

279
00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:22,680
It, you know, it does keep you going and it, people say you should just accept it.

280
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I don't believe that.

281
00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:25,439
Um,

282
00:22:25,439 --> 00:22:29,040
But also maybe go out and look for these groups.

283
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:38,880
I know it's difficult because you're not in the right frame of mind, but there may be some now, that we've not found, might be a good thing to look into, Heather, what's out there, really.

284
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:45,540
Try and find someone that's gone through it because I didn't know anyone that had gone through EpTopic at all.

285
00:22:45,540 --> 00:22:46,619
Nobody.

286
00:22:46,619 --> 00:22:48,420
So I couldn't discuss it with anyone.

287
00:22:48,420 --> 00:23:11,520
Um, But there will be somebody that you can discuss with, even if it's, I don't know, just a, an individual that someone knows someone, you know, and maybe they'd just have a chat with you, that'd be, as good as anything, really, if there's no... Another is for my health groups that specialise in, um, beg them.

288
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:20,520
Um, so it's worth just, um, you know, into your local Facebook groups and searching because I bet there is quite a lot that have popped up now, little communities.

289
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:30,180
There's obviously Tommy's charity as well, which, um, and I'm sure they can pinpoint people, um, to relevant things as well.

290
00:23:30,180 --> 00:23:33,959
So yeah, there is quite, there is a few coming up now, which is really good to see.

291
00:23:33,959 --> 00:23:37,500
But I just, it's people knowing about them, isn't it?

292
00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:46,619
So I do, you know, the NHS have got something now where they can say, we don't provide anything, but there's this, this, this, and this, that you can go to.

293
00:23:46,619 --> 00:23:47,459
Yeah.

294
00:23:47,459 --> 00:23:48,000
Yeah.

295
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,660
And don't expect other people to understand how you're feeling.

296
00:23:51,719 --> 00:23:55,199
Don't get upset if people don't understand you.

297
00:23:55,199 --> 00:24:03,060
It's, it's difficult to, to understand and that's why you're doing this podcast is wonderful, I think, to try and help one or 2 people.

298
00:24:03,060 --> 00:24:05,819
Not feel isolated about it.

299
00:24:05,819 --> 00:24:07,199
Exactly.

300
00:24:07,199 --> 00:24:08,579
Exactly, definitely.

301
00:24:08,579 --> 00:24:10,260
So one last thing.

302
00:24:10,260 --> 00:24:11,280
If you could.

303
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:19,920
As you are now, the person that you are today speak back to that person when you 1st had the 1st miscarriage, what would you say back to her today?

304
00:24:20,219 --> 00:24:21,780
Um,

305
00:24:22,859 --> 00:24:25,739
Oh, that's an interesting one, isn't it?

306
00:24:25,739 --> 00:24:30,239
Um, Because I hadn't lost hope at that point.

307
00:24:31,199 --> 00:24:38,400
I think it'd be more relevant to talk to me after the 2nd one where I'd lost hope and I was grieving and I'd,

308
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,520
I'd just said keep your spirits up as best you can.

309
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:42,359
Don't give up.

310
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,400
Look at what's available.

311
00:24:44,459 --> 00:24:45,959
Yeah.

312
00:24:45,959 --> 00:24:49,439
Plan something, focus on something else.

313
00:24:49,439 --> 00:24:56,579
Not to forget, but just to keep your mental health, you know, stable during the whole period.

314
00:24:57,060 --> 00:24:59,400
Yeah, no, definitely.

315
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:00,060
Thank you for that.

316
00:25:00,060 --> 00:25:03,359
And any last words of wisdom that we've not covered?

317
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,780
Is there anything that you'd like to still share that we might not have covered?

318
00:25:06,780 --> 00:25:09,660
Um, don't think so, Heather.

319
00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:10,979
I think we've covered everything.

320
00:25:10,979 --> 00:25:14,400
Yeah, it's been great to talk to you.

321
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,439
It's always good to talk as well, isn't it?

322
00:25:16,439 --> 00:25:21,060
So, you know, anyone that thinks, well, my story won't be important.

323
00:25:21,060 --> 00:25:24,660
Get in touch with Heather and. Come on the podcast.

324
00:25:24,839 --> 00:25:35,280
That's my biggest tips to people and wish that I, something that I would say back to my younger self now, is talk, don't have away.

325
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:41,579
Don't keep it in, talk, have those conversations because talking does really, really help.

326
00:25:41,579 --> 00:25:42,959
Yeah, yeah.

327
00:25:42,959 --> 00:25:44,520
It really does.

328
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,359
And when I started sharing any of my story through, you know, all the different things.

329
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,839
It was like a therapeutic session formation, sharing it.

330
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:53,640
It is, it is, yeah.

331
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,219
They always say it is good to talk and it is.

332
00:25:56,219 --> 00:25:57,180
It really is.

333
00:25:57,180 --> 00:25:58,619
It certainly is.

334
00:25:58,619 --> 00:26:01,859
Oh well, thank you so much for joining me on this podcast, Marie.

335
00:26:01,859 --> 00:26:03,180
Oh, welcome.

336
00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:06,119
And I'm so grateful for you sharing your story.

337
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,420
Thank you to everybody that's tuned in and listened.

338
00:26:09,420 --> 00:26:17,520
If you found this beneficial or know somebody that would, please give it a share, or share it to somebody that you know that would benefit.

339
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Thank you for listening.