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Well, welcome to a very special episode, a bit of an episode with a difference.

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So huge welcome to Samantha Jones, who is an ex-midwife for the NHS, but also now is a fertility and pregnancy specialist.

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So we're going to come from 2 different angles on this episode.

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So it's going to be a very powerful episode. And we're going to talk a little bit to Sam about her NHS and midwife journey and also what she does now to help ladies with the pregnancy and fertility journey.

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So welcome to the podcast, Sam.

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Oh, hi, Heather.

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thank you very much for having me

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And can I just say what an honour and a privilege it is?

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I've listened to some of the previous episodes that you've had and some incredible women already.

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So I'm very excited to be here.

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Oh, thank you, darling.

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Thank you.

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So do you just want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey to start off with.

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Yes, so, um, I have always wanted actually to be a midwife um, since time began.

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I can't remember when I wasn't fascinated with the human body.

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But in all honesty, the type of person that I am, I had to have my own children first.

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So I had my own children and had a wonderful experience of midwifery care and decided that the fire was still there and my husband was fantastic and my children supported me wholeheartedly and I went back and did my training.

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Um, And I think, um, the dream was to become a community midwife, um, and support women case loading.

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and I hit that dream and I wasn't really happy.

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And then I had moved into complimentary therapies and supporting women. In all honesty, I'd done it to get into the NHS with it because I'd seen a lot happening in England specifically and how wonderful it was.

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Um, but unfortunately it wasn't something that was embraced as much in Wales, um, and I'd used it with my own.

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daughter who had a threatened miscarriage.

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Um, and I had supported her through 22 births because I've got 4 children and 2 grandchildren.

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Um, And I think that the time that I've spent doing my private work and sort of the trauma work from birth led me to my field in terms of working in fertility.

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And a lot of that was because of the experiences people were having.

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They didn't want to have children again.

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Um, which also included things like miscarriage um, and child loss.

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So there was a lot kind of tied up in it, but that's kind of like how I got here.

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Oh, wow.

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So what inspired you to be a mid-

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Was it something at school as early as that?

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What inspired you to be a midwife?

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Um, I think, you know what?

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I just had a complete and utter fascination about how a woman's body.

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works on menstrual cycle.

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And as I've, as I've kind of gone through life and seen, especially in my work with kind of um, fertility, um, an IBF.

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It's really sad that we don't actually understand how our body works and we don't view our menstrual cycle as our kind of monthly health report card.

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Like we kind of normalise pain and we normalise heavy periods and we normalise all this stuff.

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But when I did my training um, a few years back now, um, as an acupuncturist, It's where Eastern medicine really gives me the understanding of of how things should be balanced, um, rather than accepted.

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So yeah, I've just had this real huge fascination with it.

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Ah, amazing.

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And how many years did you work with the NHS as a midwife?

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So I worked for the NHS, um, round about, I think about 7 years and then I went into academia.

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I was teaching student midwives in university, I became a lecturer.

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Um, but I just, I loved it.

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I was call what we call maternity led unit, midwifery led unit.

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And I was core on there for women who were categorised as low risk.

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We don't use that term not anymore, but they weren't really under like doctors, obstetricians.

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Um, and then I moved out into the community and it was just fabulous.

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I loved it.

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I think one of the one of the turning points, though, was that when I had had my children, we had something called a domino midwifery model, which meant that your midwife came into the hospital with you or you could have home birth.

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It was fantastic.

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And I honestly thought that that's what I was going in to provide that was the kind of level of care.

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Um, but it was very different.

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We had hospital midwives and then we had community midwives under what's called integrated midwifery, although they're 2 very different jobs.

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And I think when I realised that that wasn't going to happen.

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And when a couple of my ladies wanted me at their home birth and if you weren't on call, you weren't really able to do that.

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I kind of like, well what am I doing here?

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Because like it's, that's the kind of job I believed it to be and I wanted to be there for the women that were on my caseload.

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So, yeah, it became a little bit like I'm here where I want to be, but I'm really not happy.

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So yeah, I felt like I wasn't able to have the conversations with the women.

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I was building up the rapport, but not able to deliver the care in one aspect.

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No, I can totally understand that.

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And I know I've added some conversations with ladies that I've never had the same midwife throughout and they're having to retell their story over and over again and that causes more stress, doesn't there?

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Is that one of the reasons why you left as a midwife because it you couldn't give the care that you wanted to give?

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Absolutely.

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I felt like the care was really disjointed.

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It wasn't really trauma informed care.

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Um, and you know, trauma is subjective.

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It's based on a perception of what is that for somebody.

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And when you're not heard.

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by people and they are not actively listening, they're kind of listening to respond to you rather than listening to support what it is that you need to have.

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Then that's a very different level of care that I was kind of like, I've got 10 minutes here.

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And the protocols and things weren't really fitting with the women that were walking through the door.

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Um, and when you're when you're kind of like in the NHS, it's much, much harder, um, to kind of navigate that system.

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Independent midwifling when you're outside of it.

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You can support women, which is what I do a lot now in terms of birth preparation.

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We talk about what their situation is and how that they can navigate it and what the law is around it actually, because there are certain precedent cases that have actually changed how things are viewed and you do have rights as women going into your maternity care.

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Oh wow.

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Amazing.

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Well, come on to that in a 2nd actually.

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But I just want to talk about a bit of positives.

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What would you say the most rewarding moments you experienced being a midwife?

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Oh my gosh.

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There are so many. And I know people think that it's all about the babies, but actually it's for me, I think it was the ability of helping a woman achieve the experience of becoming a mum.

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in that moment and watch it, and I always used to say, I remember a lot, a lot, and I do it now, actually, when, when new parents, whether it's their 1st baby or subsequent babies, like, who is going to tell you the sex of this baby, who's going to confirm it?

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That is, that is an intimate moment that happens, that only.

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And do you really want the midwife to do it or actually is that the moment that you 2 want to share?

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It's so special.

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Um, and I think once the realisation, because I remember when I had my 1st baby.

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My eldest daughter, Fiance.

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And I remember after I'd had it looking in this crib when everyone had gone home because I did have a hospital birth for my 1st thinking, 0 my god, she's mine.

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It was just, yeah, and you know, for everyone to, I, and that's the thing that I want for everyone that I work with, is that, is that level of compassion and, you know, giving back to the women in that weight.

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This is their journey where there is a support where there is an observer.

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We're there to help them get whatever experience it is that they're trying to achieve.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, amazing.

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That beautiful.

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So we'll flip it.

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What are some of the hardest moments you've had to witness?

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Oh, gosh.

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I think some of the hardest moments are when the the policies and the protocols really don't fit the circumstances.

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So I've worked with people who've been neurodivergent.

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And some of my training that I've done independent outside of the NHS gives me a better understanding of how that evolves.

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So I tried very hard to fit that and things like um, explaining what would happen in the next session and towards the end of the pregnancies and when we needed to change things, what could come up and trying to really um, to implement that.

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So it was, it worked for the people that were going through it.

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Um, which was sometimes very difficult because even though you had preempted that and done it didn't necessarily mean that that's how it was going to go on the day.

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just because other people perhaps hadn't got an understanding of what it is you were trying to achieve or trying to do.

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And let's be honest, you know, as an autonomous practitioner, which is what you are as a midwife, if you've made a certain call, then that support should be there, regardless of whether that's in the hospital or whether it's from a colleague or, and sometimes that's the challenge, isn't it?

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when everything's busy.

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But I think ultimately we have to remember that there are people at the end of these journeys, there are people going through this, and we have to do it trauma informed, we have to do it compassionately, and we have to understand what it is that they need. Yeah.

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Does the NHS provide trauma informed coaching for the midwives.

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I know you said that you did it outside of the NHS, didn't you?

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Yeah, so I think it, the programmes that we have in terms of what's validated by like the LMCs, which is like our professional body, they can be all very, very, very different across all different universities.

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And I think it's something that we used to do very well and we actually still do very well in the university I work in.

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And we do do trauma informed care.

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So I think it is important for it to be recognised.

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I think we're getting better at it.

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But time constraints, et cetera, um policies, policies are a big driver, you know, people are, I think it's what we would, we would definitely call um defensive practice.

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Nobody wants to be kind of how to account or held accountable of things potentially that they feel is the, is, is, perhaps not the way that it would be done rather than should be done, let's say. So, um, but I think we are, we are getting better in maternity services.

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Another hardship is, you know, all of the reports and things that are coming out at the moment. And I think the difficulty there is those same findings have been extracted time and time again.

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And we don't seem to be moving forward with that, and that, that for me would be, the way that we need to start looking at things, yeah.

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Definitely.

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So some of the podcasts that I've already done, the majority of the stories have all been the same about how bad they've had an experience through the NHS, sadly.

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From, I want to hear it from like your side, what do you see and?

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You know, what care do you think could be changed or needs to be changed?

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What do you see from?

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I want people to see your side of the store and what pressures you're on as well, working as a midwife?

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Because there's 2 sides to every story obviously, isn't there?

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And the past are shared, obviously.

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Our side and the care that we've received are not received.

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What is it from your side?

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Yeah, so, I think it helps having, um, the perspective as well, having worked in the NHS also working as a private practitioner outside of the NHS in terms of trauma, because when you're when you're away from the environment, the triggers and different things, that is that is a whole different space in in which women feel safe, let's say, for example. But I think one of the biggest things that

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Definitely stuck with me through my training and what we did, um, when we became qualified was certainly, when a woman had lost a baby, that it was fundamentally uh, antenatal or gainy or maternity services, where that woman was seen, you know, like we hear lots of different stories, don't we, about women who hear babies after they've, you know, lost their own baby and then are are given very little guidance really.

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in terms of what the next steps are.

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Um, I think now, there seems to be a turning point in relation to the care and the compassion, moving things away from like the labour ward when women are giving birth to babies that they have lost, so that there are, there are definitely moves in the right direction.

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Is it enough?

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Wow.

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No, not really.

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We don't tend to have the correct setup of services, the space. And, you know, we hear it all the time, don't we, about the services that are out there and they're kind of not really fit for purpose.

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They're kind of doing the best that they can with what they've got.

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And that's not great.

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And as a community midwife, and I do remember this having done my um, my fertility work outside of the NHS.

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And I think this is a big, this is a big thing for me that um, and because my daughter went through um, a threatened miscarriage.

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Was that when a woman has had, whether it's a 1st loss or subsequent loss, Hmm.

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Their level of

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Heightened fear.

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is so, so much so, that when they come in to see you, It's not good enough to say,

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Uh, well, we don't have any scan spaces or we can't do X, Y, and Z.

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You know, that woman is looking for reassurance in one way or another.

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She just wants to know.

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Um, and there were times when I had women who I would send in because of their level, and we know, you know, we know that when women are stressed, even in pregnancy, it can have effect on babies.

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You know, the cortisol, the adrenaline rushes, it can have effect on babies, their brains and how they're developed.

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So we really shouldn't be supporting this level of stress.

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We need to start mitigating how we are supporting women through these episodes of care.

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You know, it's really, really important in these early days.

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Yeah.

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Like, some, like, for me, I think, obviously there is, um, I forgot what brain fog today.

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There is a unit.

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It isn't there for like early pregnancies where you where you could go for like the early scans and things like that if you're showing any signs of problems.

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But what I feel there should be.

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And obviously it would have been down to funding and space and I don't know whether this could ever happen.

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But it's almost like you want a special building unit that is just far, women who are potentially losing their babies are going through difficulties, so you're completely away.

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And those staff then in that particular unit can be more trauma informed, I suppose.

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Yeah. Um,

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So they're given the what, I mean, what do you think to that?

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Could that ever happen, do you think, in the NHS or would it really be down to the funding?

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I think it would be down to funding.

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And, you know, and that is a sad thing to say.

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But I do, I do think it is, it's an important area because if a woman is able to understand what's happening.

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So for example, when, when women have bleeds, And they have been sent in and all is well.

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Sometimes those bleeds can be from different things that's happening in the cervix or different areas doesn't necessarily mean that it's coming from the miscarriage.

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But if they've had a miscarriage before, that is amplified, and dependent on what gestation they've had that miscarriage, whether it's 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks, you know, I've worked with women who've been so scared of going for their scan, because they had an early pregnancy scan in their previous one, which was a private scan, all was well, and then they went for a subsequent one in the NHS and all wasn't well.

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That's what happened. And that fear, that, you know, that fear of getting to that 12 weeks, and we don't have any,

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We don't have any discussions around it.

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We don't have any support, like even like when you when you come out of that scan.

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There's nothing.

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No?

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Like, you know, what are you meant to, what are you meant to do with that information?

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Like there's no one that you can talk to?

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You're sat with that information and there is nothing.

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No, every time for mine.

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Um, I didn't get a leaflet.

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I didn't get anything, didn't get forwarded to any support or aftercare or anything.

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I were just sent away.

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Um, with a time and date to come back to have the babies removed every time.

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No like detail of how that would work, what does that operation look like, what's going to happen?

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Where's it going to be, all that kind of stuff.

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It was just like you'd lost the baby.

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You sat there crying.

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They'll leave you for a few minutes and then you have to walk through the room again where everyone's waiting for the scans or getting the photographs of the babies that they've just had scans and they're all jolly and you've got to walk back through.

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That was my case in my hospital.

193
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That might not be the same for everybody.

194
00:19:24,239 --> 00:19:25,439
That is just my experience.

195
00:19:25,439 --> 00:19:36,300
And every time I had to walk through the room, again, obviously crying and distraught, going away, not knowing what's happened, why it's happened.

196
00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:43,800
Uh, I mean, obviously a lot of the time we don't know, but, I'm what, I'm going through what the next steps actually are.

197
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:44,939
Yeah.

198
00:19:44,939 --> 00:20:02,219
Yeah, it's just, I mean, everybody's journey is different, but that was my experience and it was just absolutely awful. It's immense, you know, it's really, it's a huge, huge load for one person to be able to manage that.

199
00:20:02,219 --> 00:20:08,579
And I think also, if your partner is with you, they don't know what to do either.

200
00:20:08,579 --> 00:20:12,000
They don't know what to do for the best, they don't know what to say, they don't know.

201
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:32,939
So even if, even if the next step is that we have something that is sits alongside stands so that if that news is ever delivered to a woman, they have immediate support from someone who is trained in trauma informed care, and they can sit and talk like what the next steps are.

202
00:20:32,939 --> 00:20:41,099
Um, you know, how the next piece unfolds and answer any questions that you might have.

203
00:20:41,099 --> 00:20:46,920
And I appreciate, you know, there might be some women who like literally are not ready to talk there and then.

204
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And that's okay.

205
00:20:48,540 --> 00:20:54,540
But there should be somewhere where they have an opportunity to come back at any time.

206
00:20:54,540 --> 00:20:56,939
And have those conversations.

207
00:20:56,939 --> 00:20:57,839
That's really important.

208
00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:19,739
Yes, indeed, I mean, I interviewed a lovely lady a few episodes ago, and I didn't even know this was the case, so I hope a lot of people listen to her episode when it comes out, is that I didn't even know that you could ask for like the baby, you know, when it's removed, that you could ask for those, so you could like obviously have a burial or whatever you needed to have.

209
00:21:19,739 --> 00:21:24,599
Um, and I never knew that was, I think.

210
00:21:24,599 --> 00:21:29,579
You know, I could have asked potentially for my 7 baby, I could have had them buried.

211
00:21:29,579 --> 00:21:35,819
But I didn't know it was a thing that you could ask for them to keep whatever they removed for you to take away and.

212
00:21:35,819 --> 00:21:42,900
And in that headspace, just thinking about that, like, isn't it a shame that the onus is on you to have to ask?

213
00:21:43,619 --> 00:21:47,339
Realistically, should we not give it to you as an option?

214
00:21:47,339 --> 00:21:48,359
Exactly.

215
00:21:48,719 --> 00:21:51,479
Yeah, I didn't even know it was a thing.

216
00:21:52,079 --> 00:21:55,800
So yeah, um, interested, isn't it?

217
00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:06,599
I'm sure as time goes, hopefully it will get better, but if one thing you could change about maternity care tomorrow, what would it be?

218
00:22:07,439 --> 00:22:09,959
But you're on the speed, yeah.

219
00:22:09,959 --> 00:22:12,660
That's a hugely loaded question.

220
00:22:12,660 --> 00:22:16,380
I'm sure there's going to be lots of things, but.

221
00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:17,219
Do you know what?

222
00:22:17,219 --> 00:22:23,339
In all honesty, um, If I could change something for maternity care.

223
00:22:23,699 --> 00:22:26,280
I, there's 2 things.

224
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,439
I would change the blame culture.

225
00:22:28,859 --> 00:22:44,280
Um, and I would change the time constraints. Because I'm sure every single midwife out there wants more time to spend with their women, they really do want to know what's going on in their journey.

226
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,819
They really do, want to be there and support them.

227
00:22:47,819 --> 00:22:54,839
Um, and, and I think genuinely, I remember going on a, um, on a training day.

228
00:22:54,839 --> 00:22:56,819
Which was to do with trauma, actually.

229
00:22:56,819 --> 00:22:59,760
And we were asked to write on post-its.

230
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:06,540
And it was literally pre-COVID and put them on a wall of if we could have anything.

231
00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:09,060
In maternity to transform it.

232
00:23:09,239 --> 00:23:11,040
What would it be?

233
00:23:11,339 --> 00:23:16,920
And the woman, and it did strike me, the woman that was actually facilitating the day.

234
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,300
said.

235
00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:23,699
We none of us had put anything about money, salary, or anything.

236
00:23:23,699 --> 00:23:28,500
We had all talked about things like, could we have better equipment?

237
00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:30,839
Could we have more time, could we have?

238
00:23:30,839 --> 00:23:33,839
So I think that still exists, actually.

239
00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:40,859
I think if you're a midwife, it's in your blood. And I think that definitely midwife means to be with woman.

240
00:23:40,859 --> 00:23:42,359
That's what it means with woman.

241
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,800
So I think that is what women, that's what midwife wants.

242
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,599
They want to be with women.

243
00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:50,699
Oh, that's beautiful.

244
00:23:50,699 --> 00:23:56,219
That is really nice to hear actually that side because obviously on my side.

245
00:23:56,219 --> 00:23:57,839
I've just heard everybody's,

246
00:23:57,839 --> 00:24:04,199
Obviously, sad stories and the stress that they've had and not the care that they have.

247
00:24:04,199 --> 00:24:08,699
But to hear that, yeah, from your side, midwives do want to care.

248
00:24:08,699 --> 00:24:11,880
It's just, obviously, the time they're given to spend with each.

249
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,199
Patient.

250
00:24:13,199 --> 00:24:21,479
Absolutely. Yeah, so let's go on to some information that might help ladies listening to this.

251
00:24:21,479 --> 00:24:29,040
What advice would you give any woman listen to this about trusting their instincts through pregnancy?

252
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,560
What could they look out for?

253
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:32,939
Yeah.

254
00:24:32,939 --> 00:24:38,520
So 100% if they're trusting if they can listen to that.

255
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:44,219
It's in, and again, I was talking to you about, um, Some of the laws that have come out.

256
00:24:44,219 --> 00:24:47,280
So what? I did manage that actually.

257
00:24:47,280 --> 00:25:02,640
Yeah, so one of the laws that came out was something called the Lanarkshire versus Montgomeryshire case, which was back in 2015, and what that did was it created something called the brain acronym.

258
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,880
And we use it a lot in maternity care.

259
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:15,900
And basically it's like if there's anything that is been discussed in terms of an intervention or a process or something around your care.

260
00:25:15,959 --> 00:25:20,939
Then the brain stands for what benefits does it provide for you?

261
00:25:20,939 --> 00:25:25,319
What risks does it have in relation to your care?

262
00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:28,439
Um, what alternatives?

263
00:25:28,439 --> 00:25:32,280
Could there be rather than what you're being asked for?

264
00:25:32,339 --> 00:25:34,619
I is for intuition.

265
00:25:34,619 --> 00:25:36,660
So it's interesting to be back to that.

266
00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:39,959
And Anne was that if we did nothing,

267
00:25:39,959 --> 00:25:44,400
What would then unfold, what plan could we put in place?

268
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,800
What kind of milestones can we look at?

269
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:54,420
And I do remember an obstetrician. Who was very wise and he was absolutely fabulous.

270
00:25:54,420 --> 00:25:56,040
He had a brilliant bedside manner.

271
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:01,859
And in fact, I was just talking about this gentleman the other day and um, he did.

272
00:26:01,859 --> 00:26:08,819
I remember being a midwife whilst he was doing a little bit of medical teaching with one of the medical students.

273
00:26:08,819 --> 00:26:17,819
Um, and he'd asked this lady her, her, what was going on and he'd asked the medical student um, kind of what, uh, what would you do?

274
00:26:17,939 --> 00:26:27,180
Um, and when she gave her answer, it was very medical and he was like, that's great, but she's just said X and he said, I'm going to give you a really good piece of advice.

275
00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:30,060
Ignore woman's intuition at your own peril.

276
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:37,739
And I can honestly say, if someone is telling you there is something that is off, then go with it because there could be.

277
00:26:37,739 --> 00:26:50,099
Um, I would say for anyone um, that's kind of experiencing, any sort of loss, the way that it, sometimes there is nothing.

278
00:26:50,099 --> 00:26:59,400
Sometimes women will not ex, you know, that's why sometimes we turn up at the scans and we're really shocked by the news that we have.

279
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,239
So sometimes that is how it unfolds.

280
00:27:03,239 --> 00:27:08,760
Other times we can have things like, um, bright red spotting.

281
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:14,819
Um, sometimes we can have like brown coloured, which is what we call old blood.

282
00:27:14,819 --> 00:27:21,900
So anything that's kind of old, it would suggest that there's something happened, not necessarily negative.

283
00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:25,260
Um, so it's good to get checked out.

284
00:27:25,260 --> 00:27:32,040
Um, I kind of always had the opinion that, It's balancing like,

285
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,540
Is the level of distress for a woman.

286
00:27:36,540 --> 00:27:44,579
And the potential impact of how the baby's brain, which is unfolding, even at 6 weeks gestation.

287
00:27:44,579 --> 00:27:50,760
You know, we have a lot going on from from conception up until 12 weeks.

288
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,459
There's a lot of changes happen very, very rapidly.

289
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:59,939
So therefore, when you think about what's going on for that woman and the level of hormones that are going through.

290
00:27:59,939 --> 00:28:03,839
It's really important to try to alleviate that as much as possible.

291
00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:19,500
So I would send women for scans, um, and there were times when the protocol was that they had to be like have pain or heavy bleeding, which would indicate potentially something like an ectopic pregnancy.

292
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:27,359
Um, which can be, you know, um, really, really detrimental if things um, were to burst things like that.

293
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,880
So it's important to Support the woman as best we can.

294
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:45,239
Um, but I would send ladies in for scans, um, because I just think sometimes it's about what's what's happening um, in that moment, and I think you have to make that call as a healthcare professional.

295
00:28:46,079 --> 00:28:52,800
I think my tit would be as well from my experiences, don't be afraid to ask and push for that scan.

296
00:28:52,859 --> 00:28:56,579
Because like, you know, intuition if you don't feel right.

297
00:28:56,579 --> 00:29:00,540
There's getting a balance, what you say, there's getting a balances, there have been,

298
00:29:00,540 --> 00:29:15,719
I'm not saying paranoid, but just being scared about of everything because women can be, especially if you've had a lot of some miscarriages, like I have every single thing you worry about then, every single flinch, not flinch, anything you panic about.

299
00:29:15,719 --> 00:29:25,739
But I would honestly say if you really think something is wrong, then push for those scans or even if those anxiety levels are getting out of control.

300
00:29:25,979 --> 00:29:30,479
Go and get a scam just for a peace of mind, definitely, I would say.

301
00:29:30,479 --> 00:29:32,040
Absolutely.

302
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,540
We can still have private scans.

303
00:29:33,540 --> 00:29:35,099
That's, you know, a given.

304
00:29:35,099 --> 00:29:49,560
But the other side of that, working in the kind of private field that I work in, then I think it's always worth considering someone that may have knowledge of what is happening in terms of miscarriage.

305
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:55,619
Acupuncture is always fantastic and that's what we did with my daughter when she had a threatened miscarriage.

306
00:29:55,619 --> 00:30:04,140
Um, she had a very stressful job and stress can be one of the kind of um, things that can make it worse.

307
00:30:04,140 --> 00:30:10,260
Um, and and but we were very fortunate in that when we did the acupuncture, we did it daily.

308
00:30:10,260 --> 00:30:13,619
And with each day, the bleeding got less and all was well.

309
00:30:13,619 --> 00:30:32,640
So it is important that there are things that can also support in that area, not necessarily funded by the NHS, but there are certainly things out there that can help and support this kind of timeline.

310
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:38,339
If someone out there is feeling like they really need that support and help.

311
00:30:38,339 --> 00:30:39,540
Sure.

312
00:30:39,540 --> 00:30:44,819
Is that something that you can now help, let anybody listening to this that you could help them through that journey, yeah?

313
00:30:44,819 --> 00:30:46,260
Yeah, absolutely.

314
00:30:46,260 --> 00:30:51,119
So I do some work online because we can use acupressure in some circumstances.

315
00:30:51,119 --> 00:30:55,079
We can also use, and like you said, NLP techniques.

316
00:30:55,079 --> 00:31:14,579
Um, and there are, and I do acupuncture here in the clinic, um, when we've got other things that are going on also. Um, so yeah, it is, it is worth, Oh, we're going to come on to your new work in a 2nd, but one last question about the midwife, um, um, perspective.

317
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:30,180
What questions do you think a woman should not be scared of asking the midwife for about or is the questions that they should be asking the midwife but often don't because we don't know that we're allowed to ask that maybe or.

318
00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:34,500
What advice would you give of questions that we should be asking our midwives?

319
00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:42,060
Yeah, so I think that's a hard one because I don't think anyone should be muted.

320
00:31:42,060 --> 00:31:43,920
I think if you've got a question.

321
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,119
It's good to ask.

322
00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:51,660
Um, and I think it's important, like, We don't all have the same training.

323
00:31:51,660 --> 00:31:55,380
Some of us have extended training outside of our NHS roles.

324
00:31:55,380 --> 00:31:58,199
So, it's not always that we are all on the same training.

325
00:31:58,199 --> 00:32:11,339
So it's also important for midwives to be able to go and seek that guidance from other sources or colleagues that can support. But I do think that if women have concerns.

326
00:32:11,339 --> 00:32:25,859
Absolutely, find, you know, if you're not getting what you need at that point, then it is important to find somebody who can support you in the right way for you to be able to navigate that journey.

327
00:32:25,859 --> 00:32:34,800
Um, because it's, it's just not acceptable, um, to just be left, you know?

328
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:36,719
Yeah.

329
00:32:36,719 --> 00:32:38,040
Oh, thank you for that.

330
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,160
So we're going to go on to your fertility role now.

331
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:47,459
So what made you get into your fertility and pregnancy role as a specialist?

332
00:32:47,459 --> 00:32:53,160
Yes, so um, I think I started with complimentary therapies as a midwife.

333
00:32:53,160 --> 00:33:11,400
Um, and I remember doing some observational clinics in one of the trusts in England and I started with like aromatherapy and it kind of moved into um, acupuncture very quickly because the women that were there in the NHS didn't manage to get to the aromatherapy.

334
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,199
So I thought, what's going on with acupuncture?

335
00:33:13,199 --> 00:33:21,180
So I then went to train with a really fabulous establishment called expectancy down in London.

336
00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:29,819
Um, and that was run by a lady who is an absolute guru and complimentary therapist, Denise Taran.

337
00:33:29,819 --> 00:33:40,020
Um, and when I got into all of that, I just saw a difference like the acupuncture in terms of pain relief in pregnancy for things like SPD.

338
00:33:40,020 --> 00:33:47,760
Um, and then, when I kind of came out the other side, the trauma work, I had done a lot of.

339
00:33:47,819 --> 00:33:59,880
And from there, it then, it emerged that women were, having things like secondary and fertility, serve infotency because they just didn't want to get pregnant again.

340
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,359
They didn't want to have the same experience and I was like, 0 my god, this is this is mad.

341
00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:12,000
So, um, I then qualified as a fully fledged acupuncturist because I wanted to know more about how it worked with fertility.

342
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:17,580
Um, And yeah, it just it kind of grew from there.

343
00:34:17,580 --> 00:34:32,699
Um, and I've worked with women who've had all sorts um, from an explained infertility, uh, from one fallopian tube and and one ovary, um, to decades worth of IVF.

344
00:34:32,699 --> 00:34:39,840
Um, and it's just been absolutely fascinating and most of my clients actually turn into really good friends.

345
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:51,179
Um, and it, it, it, it really does like me up, being able to help women through all aspects of this journey at whatever stage, something somewhere has gone a little awry.

346
00:34:51,179 --> 00:34:52,379
Yeah.

347
00:34:52,379 --> 00:34:54,479
I'm getting really emotional here.

348
00:34:54,479 --> 00:35:06,360
Obviously, people can't see because there's no video, but yeah, getting really emotional because I'm just thinking of my journey and if I'd known you around that time, how different my journey potentially could have been.

349
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,959
Because I didn't know anything like this existed.

350
00:35:09,959 --> 00:35:12,060
It's all education, isn't it?

351
00:35:12,060 --> 00:35:14,399
If we don't know, you don't know about it, do you?

352
00:35:14,399 --> 00:35:25,800
You know, you're saying about not wanting to try, we did have a time with my 2nd husband that we had to put a like, right, we're not, we can't try, we can't go through this any further.

353
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,699
And sadly, me and Barry have never had a child together.

354
00:35:29,699 --> 00:35:39,000
Um, So yeah, our journey could have been a lot different if we'd known, known you or somebody similar, it would just, yeah, quite emotional.

355
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:55,620
But it's amazing what you're doing, and if this, if people can hear this podcast and if they're still going through a fertility journey, I want to have another one, but are scared to have another one, then at least they can find you now, which could open up so many different journeys with so many women.

356
00:35:55,739 --> 00:35:57,479
Absolutely.

357
00:35:57,479 --> 00:36:05,879
And I think one of the things that my business is kind of built on is choice that and that's where it sits really.

358
00:36:05,879 --> 00:36:09,600
And the reason that it's all about choices because I'm not.

359
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:10,919
anti-anything.

360
00:36:10,919 --> 00:36:16,080
I'm pro what a woman wants her experience to be.

361
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:33,360
And a lot of clients, I will say, have come to me because they've had experiences of IBF. And The thing that saddens me most is that IVF's great, honestly, for women who need it.

362
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:44,459
But what I see time and time again, are the women that are kind of shovelled down IVF, who actually don't. And it's, it's not.

363
00:36:44,459 --> 00:36:51,959
I just think it's a reflection of The medical profession are very good at the medical aspects.

364
00:36:51,959 --> 00:36:52,620
Yeah.

365
00:36:52,620 --> 00:36:55,860
But not everything needs to be medicalized.

366
00:36:55,860 --> 00:37:00,360
Um, one of the biggest drivers like unexplained infertility.

367
00:37:00,419 --> 00:37:06,120
I'm like, that's the best actual diagnosis you can have because it means there's nothing wrong.

368
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:16,860
It's a about understanding what the root causes. And understanding once we've found that, just how we make the changes and make things happen.

369
00:37:16,860 --> 00:37:34,919
Um, and I think, For me, it's, it's understanding reverse, um, cycling to get to that root cause because it's always more often than not hormonal imbalance or inflammation generally.

370
00:37:34,919 --> 00:37:40,139
So it's a really interesting journey and I do.

371
00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:43,800
I was just having a conversation with someone the other day and she said,

372
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:47,459
She had she'd asked someone to get in touch with me.

373
00:37:47,459 --> 00:37:50,219
Um, and she, and I could see it on her face.

374
00:37:50,219 --> 00:37:55,199
She was so sad and she said, and it's not because, you know, she hasn't got in touch with you.

375
00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:59,100
It's because I remember I offered something called SOS calls.

376
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:16,919
So when you've been for IVF and you're worried about that 2 week wait, or if you've started bleeding, that SOS call is there, and she said, and I remember, I can't really remember what triggered it, but I remember needing to phone you and she was like, it was just like, Everything's okay.

377
00:38:16,919 --> 00:38:33,360
It's, you know, and it's having somebody that you can do that with because very often women don't want to have that conversation with family, friends, partners, because, A, they really don't understand it a lot of the time.

378
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:41,280
And they don't want to upset somebody to the level that they're upset and they don't want to be filtered by what they want to say.

379
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,080
Sometimes they just want to scream, right?

380
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:47,639
It's like just that release of 0 my god, nobody gets this.

381
00:38:47,879 --> 00:38:51,000
Um, and that's what she was saying.

382
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,979
And I think that's the sad thing is that actually.

383
00:38:52,979 --> 00:38:55,739
There isn't anybody that does that.

384
00:38:55,739 --> 00:39:00,600
So the emotional side of these journeys are, Oh my god, they're savage.

385
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:01,919
that, you know, they're huge.

386
00:39:01,919 --> 00:39:10,919
So it's, yeah, it, that for me is, is probably what I enjoy the most is, is, is that support getting them through that.

387
00:39:10,979 --> 00:39:12,959
Yeah, I can see that.

388
00:39:12,959 --> 00:39:20,280
What would you say any myths were around fertility? Because I think it is all drummed into us, isn't it?

389
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:21,179
You have to go to the doctor.

390
00:39:21,179 --> 00:39:22,919
You got that, you have to go to the NHS.

391
00:39:22,919 --> 00:39:24,060
You have to go on tablets.

392
00:39:24,060 --> 00:39:27,780
You have to have medical inter- and nobody knows about this.

393
00:39:27,780 --> 00:39:35,820
You know, alternative therapies or when you mention like ReK, reflexology, people go, what is that?

394
00:39:35,820 --> 00:39:37,439
How can that help?

395
00:39:37,439 --> 00:39:41,340
Like when I talk to my dad about, I'm qualified in rake it.

396
00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:44,159
It looks at me like I'm like I've gone stupid.

397
00:39:44,159 --> 00:39:46,020
Like, what's next that?

398
00:39:46,020 --> 00:39:48,300
And it is, isn't it?

399
00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:56,459
So, what myths do you come across that, you know, about fertility and what would you like to get across to anybody listening?

400
00:39:56,459 --> 00:39:57,600
Okay.

401
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,120
There are they're on loads.

402
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,639
I could sit here and just wheel them off.

403
00:40:02,639 --> 00:40:08,100
I think the biggest thing, the biggest challenge, the biggest myth of it all.

404
00:40:08,459 --> 00:40:10,739
Is just how much.

405
00:40:13,739 --> 00:40:22,080
Our brain sits in the background and changes how our body works based on our life experience.

406
00:40:22,199 --> 00:40:33,360
So therefore, what happens is in a lot of fertility journeys and which is, I would say attributable to the success that I have with my clients.

407
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:38,159
Is that They just don't.

408
00:40:38,399 --> 00:40:42,479
Even contemplate that that is a thing.

409
00:40:42,479 --> 00:40:44,639
But if you think about it logically.

410
00:40:44,639 --> 00:41:00,479
You know, if we talk about even simple things, stress, for example, um, stress can change, like your blood pressure, you know, it can change, like you can have so low moods, um, it just changes the way your whole body functions.

411
00:41:00,479 --> 00:41:07,080
And I remember, one of my, uh, one of my, My beautiful crap.

412
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:08,100
She had a 10 year journey.

413
00:41:08,100 --> 00:41:09,419
it was incredible.

414
00:41:09,419 --> 00:41:11,879
And when she started working with me.

415
00:41:11,879 --> 00:41:16,919
I remember she sent me this text and she said, um, I don't know if you offer this.

416
00:41:16,919 --> 00:41:20,639
I feel like the clinic has got everything covered going through IVF.

417
00:41:20,639 --> 00:41:22,199
I feel like the clinic has got everything covered.

418
00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:25,679
Um, but I wonder if you offer some emotional support.

419
00:41:26,159 --> 00:41:33,360
And at the end of her journey, I asked her, um, she worked with me for 7 months.

420
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:41,580
She had a massive, she'd overstimulated in the clinic, having understimulated the 1st time.

421
00:41:41,580 --> 00:41:42,659
Yeah.

422
00:41:42,659 --> 00:41:49,860
Her partner had problems on all 3 counts of his spam, motility, morphology, and quantity.

423
00:41:49,860 --> 00:41:52,620
They had worked with a nutritionist.

424
00:41:52,620 --> 00:41:57,300
They had done various different things, and it was 10 years in.

425
00:41:57,300 --> 00:41:59,159
Wow.

426
00:41:59,159 --> 00:41:59,639
Yeah.

427
00:41:59,639 --> 00:42:02,340
So there had been a lot going on in this journey.

428
00:42:02,340 --> 00:42:07,560
And when we worked together for 7 months.

429
00:42:07,979 --> 00:42:11,219
And she found out she was pregnant naturally.

430
00:42:11,219 --> 00:42:12,780
Wow.

431
00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:27,959
And she has got a little boy now and um, she was just like, when I when I asked her and what was the thing, she was like, I just didn't realise how disconnected from my own body, the whole journey had made her.

432
00:42:27,959 --> 00:42:29,280
Yeah.

433
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,120
And I think that is the biggest myth.

434
00:42:33,179 --> 00:42:41,939
That when we don't have our mind, our subconscious mind connected with how our body is working and we're not connected with ourselves.

435
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,580
It's the biggest block.

436
00:42:44,580 --> 00:42:45,719
genuinely.

437
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,159
Yeah.

438
00:42:47,159 --> 00:42:52,199
The pressure as well, when you are trying for a baby, it's so immense, isn't it?

439
00:42:52,199 --> 00:43:03,479
But if you don't, some people get caught straight away and it's an accident or whatever, but if you are going through a journey where, right, this is what we're doing, we are going to try and conceive now and it's a planned thing.

440
00:43:03,659 --> 00:43:07,560
The stress is so intense, isn't it?

441
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:08,760
Because you're waiting for

442
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:09,840
are you gonna come on your period?

443
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,820
Oh, yeah, we've come on.

444
00:43:11,820 --> 00:43:16,439
It hasn't worked this time or no, but then you're late because the stress has caused you.

445
00:43:16,439 --> 00:43:18,000
You know, you free to be late.

446
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:27,000
And then it's like next month, try again, and it's like, then you get the ovulation sticks and all that jars, and then it's like, I'm ovulating.

447
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,179
You need to come home from work now, we need to go on it like rabbits.

448
00:43:30,179 --> 00:43:35,100
It's like the stress is just like that was my journey, obviously.

449
00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:38,100
No, and that's the, yeah, that is absolutely a thing.

450
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:41,639
So it's part of my training, we talked about the cycle of despair.

451
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:46,919
And that cycle goes on every single month.

452
00:43:46,919 --> 00:43:54,600
It kind of goes from the trying to then the kind of like, do I dare to hope because we've done the practical thing.

453
00:43:54,600 --> 00:44:07,080
And then the fear, like if I am or if I'm not, and if I am, you know, does it stay, and if I'm not, it's another month loss, and you're grieving something that you want so intensely.

454
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,260
That you're just, it's almost out of reach.

455
00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:23,040
And the other side of that is how long has that cycle then occurred? Because that then becomes this roller coaster that goes lower and lower and lower over years, decades.

456
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:36,840
You know, and and then other things then start really pressurising that because it's then like, oh, well, uh, you know, my age is a thing and, you know, like how, how am I going to, what if this never happens?

457
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,639
And so all of these things.

458
00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:54,120
And then that's exacerbated by when you go and see these clinicians who are like, well, you know, your ovarian reserve is this and, you know, this is not really functioning the way that we want it to, and that builds belief.

459
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,719
That builds belief in the body that actually we are defunct.

460
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:58,919
Actually, no, we're not.

461
00:44:58,919 --> 00:45:03,360
We just need to understand our menstrual cycle.

462
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:04,199
What is happening?

463
00:45:04,199 --> 00:45:10,800
And when you look at the evidence, it's like, I talk a lot about fam methods, which is fertility awareness.

464
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:21,239
And it's 98, 99% if you get all of the elements right in being successful, which is the same as contraception the other way around.

465
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:42,899
So if you can, and there are, there are some studies out there that are very, very, um, supportive of these kind of methods and how using like the, um, mind body connection in conjunction with that, it can really amplify the results that happen for women without needing to go on medications.

466
00:45:42,899 --> 00:45:45,780
And some of the medications, you know, can be very detrimental.

467
00:45:45,780 --> 00:45:58,080
There's some medications in IVF that can be so bad that actually, it is a factor in having certain cancers when we're older, you know, further down the line because we've had these kind of interventions.

468
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:06,000
So it's interesting to understand that from the perspective that women don't necessarily have that information.

469
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:07,439
It's an education piece.

470
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:13,620
But because we're so focussed on the outcomes, we kind of think, well, we'll deal with that at a different time.

471
00:46:13,620 --> 00:46:15,000
Yeah.

472
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,560
No, thank you for that.

473
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:23,459
This podcast is just this episode is just, yeah, wow, I think we're going to have to do an episode two and episode three.

474
00:46:23,459 --> 00:46:26,040
I'm so much to talk about, is it, then?

475
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:32,280
Um, one of the things, what people might want to know, when can this like come to you?

476
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:33,840
When is the best time?

477
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,699
Can they come before they even start trying or do they have to wait for a miscarriage to happen?

478
00:46:38,699 --> 00:46:43,439
When's the best time to come to a fertility specialist, like yourself?

479
00:46:43,439 --> 00:46:46,439
I'm going to say the times have come to me.

480
00:46:46,439 --> 00:46:48,600
is when you are ready.

481
00:46:48,600 --> 00:47:01,679
But if I'm honest, the best time is to look at what is happening in your cycle and things at least 3 to 6 months before you even think about wanting to conceive.

482
00:47:01,679 --> 00:47:10,379
And the reason that this is so important is because in our bodies, we have, we're made up of cells.

483
00:47:10,379 --> 00:47:17,639
And our cellular health in terms of a Western culture is really, really poor.

484
00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:23,520
And when we look at that and we think about the egg and the sperm bean cells,

485
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:46,020
If we can get that to a point where it's really healthy, and that we are driving it with different elements of our diet and different things, understanding whether or not we have, so this is the, like what infuriates me is when I see things on social media, like it's tech, take this supplement, do this, do that.

486
00:47:46,020 --> 00:47:51,419
And we're asking strangers, like, would you go and walk up to somebody with a pregnancy test and what do you think of this?

487
00:47:51,419 --> 00:47:53,580
It's kind of like, no.

488
00:47:53,580 --> 00:47:56,639
And I wouldn't ask a chef to come and sort out my car.

489
00:47:56,639 --> 00:47:58,379
Do you know what I mean?

490
00:47:58,379 --> 00:48:08,219
It's kind of like if I'm going to have something that's so important to me, like the next generation, like my child, I want to make sure the greatest gift I can give them is health.

491
00:48:08,459 --> 00:48:13,320
So the best thing to do is come to me or someone like me.

492
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,219
3 to 6 months before you're due to start.

493
00:48:17,580 --> 00:48:28,439
And really amplify it because these kind of things can really offset miscarriage risk and that emotional turmoil.

494
00:48:28,439 --> 00:48:33,360
Because we have a much better playing field and foundations that have been laid.

495
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:40,320
So for sure, preconception care, that is part of a midwives role, it's not really something that's done very well.

496
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:51,780
In the NHS, we don't generally see women until they're kind of like already peed on a steak and they find out that they're pregnant, um, which is not really the best time.

497
00:48:51,780 --> 00:49:00,000
So if women genuinely want to know when to come best, it's normally 3 to 6 months before you're due to, you know, try to get pregnant.

498
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,520
So let's make the foundations the best that they can be.

499
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:03,899
Yeah.

500
00:49:03,899 --> 00:49:08,580
But that's not saying the cat come to you if someone is listening to this had 5 miscarriages already, for instance.

501
00:49:08,580 --> 00:49:09,600
No.

502
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:31,560
In fact, that's probably more because when I ask women, a lot of the questions that I ask, They're quite taken aback at things like, I'll very, when they're telling me their journey and I'll say to them, oh, so I'm going to ask you a question now, I think I know the answer, but like, were you ever on the contraceptive pill? And it's kind of like, well, yes.

503
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:49,739
And I'm like, okay, so that makes fully, I understand all of this. And they're like, 0 my god, we don't really understand the synthetic hormones that play a part of our fertility journey, especially if we've been put on it for a number of years in our early, um, adolescence.

504
00:49:49,739 --> 00:49:55,560
It does have a massive impact to play and it also contributes to things like a PMOS.

505
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,419
It used to be known as PCOS.

506
00:49:57,419 --> 00:50:02,159
So this is where we have more insulin, so it's more to do with nutrition.

507
00:50:02,159 --> 00:50:28,260
So the different nuances that come from women experiencing a fertility journey means that what you may do for one woman or couple will not work for a different person because they're not, they don't share the same reasons. Like, if you had someone like was hypothyroidism, that would be totally different to like PCOS, PM, PMOS.

508
00:50:28,260 --> 00:50:38,280
So you have to work with what the person that's coming with you to you for, you have to understand what's going on for her.

509
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,379
And a lot of people go, well, my cycle is this.

510
00:50:40,379 --> 00:50:44,639
We don't generally tend to know a lot of our cycle a lot of the time.

511
00:50:44,639 --> 00:50:48,000
Um, like people with PMOS.

512
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,580
Sometimes they can be what we call an ovulatory.

513
00:50:50,580 --> 00:50:56,760
So what that means is that when they're paying on an ovulation stick, I see all the time in social media, like, oh, I've ovulated.

514
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:02,100
No, it's told you that you've had a rise in a hormone that then triggers ovulation.

515
00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:04,439
But if you are an ovulatory,

516
00:51:04,439 --> 00:51:08,939
You tried to release your egg every month, but you never actually release it.

517
00:51:08,939 --> 00:51:13,439
So it doesn't matter how many times you have sex, you're not going to fertilise an egg that's not actually being released.

518
00:51:13,439 --> 00:51:19,260
So then you have to work with, wow, okay, so let's work out with the hormones before that.

519
00:51:19,260 --> 00:51:22,919
so we can get your egg released so we can understand what's going on with your cycle.

520
00:51:22,919 --> 00:51:23,939
Wow.

521
00:51:23,939 --> 00:51:25,260
Wow, wow, wow.

522
00:51:25,260 --> 00:51:32,340
Yeah, so there's a lot, you know, it's not, everyone's different and you have to work with the differences of the people that are coming to you.

523
00:51:32,340 --> 00:51:34,679
You can't, there's no blanket for this.

524
00:51:34,679 --> 00:51:36,360
No, not at all.

525
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:40,260
So on this, just last question on this subject.

526
00:51:40,260 --> 00:52:05,879
If people are listening now and obviously on a journey or starting a journey or had miscarriages and want to conceive still, what 3 tips could you give them to maybe try to enhance that possibility of them getting pregnant, like with maybe lifestyle changes or protecting the mental well-being or things that they should start doing in their lifestyle?

527
00:52:05,879 --> 00:52:06,959
What tips would you give anybody?

528
00:52:07,020 --> 00:52:29,040
Okay, so the 1st thing, fundamentally, the actual foundational piece, um, I would ask them to look at, if they, if they have any supplements, test what their Omega 6 to 3 ratio is, because if your Omega 6 is higher than your Omega 3 significantly, more than 3 to one, you have a lot of inflammation in the body.

529
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:38,699
So that already affects the cells itself, like how, how, how easy it is for things to get in and out of cells like toxins and nutrients and different things.

530
00:52:38,699 --> 00:52:40,679
So that's the very 1st thing that I would suggest.

531
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,580
The 2nd thing is yes, definitely stress.

532
00:52:44,580 --> 00:52:49,139
Um, And it's what I call like living in the weight.

533
00:52:49,139 --> 00:52:59,580
Um, because if you're living to, if you're living in the weight, you're kind of, Acceptance of the baby that's going to come to you.

534
00:52:59,580 --> 00:53:12,000
Whereas if you're waiting to live, you're putting everything off, you're not living life, you're totally focussed on something and feel like you're kind of, well, I can't do this, can't get married, can't go on holiday, can't do, you know, get the, get the new job or I can't.

535
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,479
So all of those things, then amplify the stress levels.

536
00:53:16,139 --> 00:53:33,060
So, it's, it's having someone that can support you, to live, while we're waiting for this baby to come and embrace what's going on around you so that we have um, a level of um, quality of life.

537
00:53:33,060 --> 00:53:34,439
you know?

538
00:53:34,439 --> 00:53:39,360
Um, and then I think is definitely the mind body connection.

539
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:41,100
you can find someone that can do that.

540
00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:47,040
Um, that, that is probably the top 3 things that I would suggest.

541
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:51,780
There are all, you know, you can you can go and look at different like lifestyle things for men and women.

542
00:53:51,780 --> 00:53:55,739
When I work with couples, I tend not to do it together.

543
00:53:55,739 --> 00:53:59,340
And I would realistically say because very often,

544
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:04,139
One is fearful of saying something that may trigger the other.

545
00:54:04,139 --> 00:54:16,439
But it's really important for someone to have a space in which they can be open and honest and have those conversations so that they're free to voice it and talk it through and process it.

546
00:54:16,439 --> 00:54:17,639
That's really important also.

547
00:54:17,699 --> 00:54:19,739
Oh, thank you for that.

548
00:54:19,739 --> 00:54:20,639
Great tips.

549
00:54:20,639 --> 00:54:23,040
So I just want to finish on hope.

550
00:54:23,459 --> 00:54:29,580
What's the biggest lesson you've learnt from working with women over the years, would you say?

551
00:54:30,479 --> 00:54:39,479
I think, you know, women are, They're just, they've taught me so, so much.

552
00:54:39,479 --> 00:54:49,800
And I think, in terms of the, They they trust.

553
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:51,600
A lot of the time.

554
00:54:51,659 --> 00:54:55,139
And when that trust is broken.

555
00:54:55,139 --> 00:54:59,760
In any, in any part of their journey.

556
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:05,879
That can be the biggest barrier to finding.

557
00:55:06,060 --> 00:55:08,639
The most effective care.

558
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:20,280
And I would like to offer people hope because I, like I said to you before, you know, I've, I've had so many people with so many different journeys and I can give you,

559
00:55:20,639 --> 00:55:23,399
The way I work is intuitively.

560
00:55:23,399 --> 00:55:35,459
And I recall one lady that I had, and I said to her, I feel like there's something here that is just, um, that there's something else.

561
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,459
And she literally turns to me and she said.

562
00:55:41,459 --> 00:55:45,120
Well, I was abused when I was a child and I never told anybody.

563
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:49,260
Um, and we talked it through and I said to her, that's it.

564
00:55:49,260 --> 00:55:50,879
That's that's it.

565
00:55:50,879 --> 00:55:52,560
And I said, you don't have to go away.

566
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,179
You don't have to tell anybody if you don't want to.

567
00:55:54,179 --> 00:55:56,100
That's not the, that's not the process.

568
00:55:56,100 --> 00:56:00,479
Um, and she came back the next month and she was like, I'm pregnant.

569
00:56:03,479 --> 00:56:21,179
And it's like because she felt like she, behind that, what it was, was that she felt like there was something that, as a mum, the fear of not being there or or not being the protective, um, you know, from what her experience was.

570
00:56:21,179 --> 00:56:30,840
And I think when you have that intuition and I think midwives have an extremely attuned intuition, you just know.

571
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,979
Um, when you're tuned into that and you know, you know.

572
00:56:35,580 --> 00:56:37,260
Beautiful.

573
00:56:37,260 --> 00:56:38,520
beautiful.

574
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:43,800
If someone's listening today and feels like giving up on their journey, what would you want them to hear?

575
00:56:46,860 --> 00:56:50,399
If Changing.

576
00:56:50,580 --> 00:56:58,860
Their pathway is right for them, and it's come from a place that they want it as a choice.

577
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:00,840
That's fine.

578
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:05,399
You know, they don't have to feel like they have to stay on this path.

579
00:57:06,419 --> 00:57:12,959
But if that's not a choice, if they feel like that is.

580
00:57:13,620 --> 00:57:17,159
Almost something that is forced upon them.

581
00:57:18,060 --> 00:57:20,100
Then that's not okay.

582
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:34,260
That is when it's important to have the conversations, to understand where you're at, what is available to you, and how things could be shaped very, very differently.

583
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:40,320
And it doesn't necessarily mean that you do or you don't need Western medicine.

584
00:57:40,439 --> 00:57:57,959
But where I would say working with somebody who has an understanding of the mind, body connection, and the eastern medicine, where it meets Western medicine, and understanding how the body functions, and how we return back to balance.

585
00:57:57,959 --> 00:58:03,239
That is where the actual magic happens.

586
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,120
So don't give up hope.

587
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:14,879
If you've got a journey that you feel you are here to pursue, Then it's just about finding the right support for you.

588
00:58:15,479 --> 00:58:17,159
Amazing.

589
00:58:17,159 --> 00:58:18,540
Perfect advice.

590
00:58:18,540 --> 00:58:20,100
I feel like I need to rename you, Sam.

591
00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:24,899
You're the fertility and pregnancy, fairy godmother with the magic.

592
00:58:25,979 --> 00:58:31,979
Oh my god, can you imagine if you gave me a wonder, be like Harry Potter around my house and be like, you can do this. Boom.

593
00:58:32,459 --> 00:58:35,399
I could just say, you are.

594
00:58:35,399 --> 00:58:43,080
He does the scary godmother and everybody who wants to be on a journey and have a baby in struggling needs to be in contact with you.

595
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:49,919
How, before I ask you the last last question, how can people come and find you if they want to have a chat?

596
00:58:49,919 --> 00:58:57,959
Yeah, so they can, they can find me on social media, um, or they can find me on my website, natural pregnant, natural fertility and pregnancy.com.

597
00:58:57,959 --> 00:59:03,659
They can um, I, I can drop you some stuff, they can get in touch with me.

598
00:59:03,659 --> 00:59:05,280
I'm very, very accessible.

599
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:09,060
Email me Sam at natural uh pregnancy. Wales.

600
00:59:09,060 --> 00:59:11,760
And yeah, I'm so open.

601
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:28,800
I'm really big on having conversations 1st because I think it's important that people are able to just build that, um, rapport with you and understand more about what's going on and, you know, I think that's really important when you're dealing with such, um, a life chapter.

602
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:30,300
Definitely.

603
00:59:30,300 --> 00:59:32,280
Definitely beautiful.

604
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:38,879
So this question comes, obviously, from my own journey and probably resonates with a lot of people listening to this.

605
00:59:38,879 --> 00:59:50,520
So my last question for you is if you could sit with every woman who has experienced baby loss or infertility for just 5 minutes, what would you want her to know?

606
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:54,000
Wow.

607
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:55,620
That is that is...

608
00:59:55,620 --> 00:59:59,219
It would probably give you that question before to think about.

609
00:59:59,219 --> 01:00:00,540
Um,

610
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:07,500
I would want her to know that it is okay not to be okay.

611
01:00:08,699 --> 01:00:12,419
And I'd wanted to know, oh, you got me going now.

612
01:00:12,419 --> 01:00:19,739
Um, Just thinking about sort of the journey, um, that my daughter went through.

613
01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:23,760
That having somebody there.

614
01:00:23,820 --> 01:00:25,860
That you can.

615
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:32,820
Just rant, just, you know, let loose, scream if you have to.

616
01:00:33,479 --> 01:00:38,459
Just having somebody there that you don't have to be filtered with.

617
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,459
is really important.

618
01:00:41,939 --> 01:00:56,100
And if that person Can then help you to navigate that pathway, in however that unfolds for you, and like I say, you know, I'm totally pro-choice and everybody is different.

619
01:00:56,340 --> 01:01:12,179
But having that understanding, that is, that's just the be all and end all really, but ultimately, it is okay not to be okay and have that support through that.

620
01:01:12,479 --> 01:01:14,219
Totally.

621
01:01:14,219 --> 01:01:15,479
Thank you so much.

622
01:01:15,479 --> 01:01:17,939
And I'm going to end it there where we're both crying.

623
01:01:18,239 --> 01:01:21,899
Thank you so much for this podcast.

624
01:01:21,899 --> 01:01:27,540
I know it's going to help so many women and I'm sure I'll get you back on for another episode as well.

625
01:01:27,540 --> 01:01:30,780
That was just perfect on all levels.

626
01:01:30,780 --> 01:01:38,399
So thank you from me personally and thank you for every woman who out there who needs Sam Jones in their life.

627
01:01:38,399 --> 01:01:40,320
Oh, thank you, heaven.

628
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:45,780
Thank you so much for that, you know, the opportunity to come and talk, you know, about my experiences.

629
01:01:45,780 --> 01:01:53,760
And if there is anybody out there who wants anything specific, like any topics or anything, I'm more than happy to come back and have some more conversation.

630
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:55,260
Beautiful.

631
01:01:55,260 --> 01:01:56,280
Thank you, darling.

632
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,320
And thank you to everybody that's listened to this episode.

633
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:02,280
And if this episode may resonate to somebody that you might know.

634
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:09,780
Please share this episode out, because if we can just help one lady between us, then we've done our job.

635
01:02:09,780 --> 01:02:11,459
So thank you for listening.